In today’s episode, we begin our interview with Dr. Dean Ornish with a discussion about how to prevent and possibly reverse dementia as well as other chronic diseases.
In today’s episode, we begin our interview with Dr. Dean Ornish with a discussion about how to prevent and possibly reverse dementia as well as other chronic diseases. Dr. Ornish and his wife Anne posit a unifying theory that many chronic diseases are all driven by the same lifestyle factors and can not only be prevented, but in many cases, reversed.
Over the last 4 decades, their scientific studies have supported a unifying concept that a therapeutic lifestyle can collectively address high cholesterol, excessive weight and obesity, pre- and type 2 diabetes as well as early prostate cancer, to name a few.
And now they postulate that lifestyle changes can perhaps even affect the progression of early stage Alzheimer’s disease.
Although lifestyle change is not as glamorous or powerful as high tech surgical procedures in affecting a health improvement in patients, Dean and Anne Ornish and their team show how powerful simple lifestyle changes are in helping reverse chronic disease.
“When you change your lifestyle, it changes your genes,” Dr. Ornish explains. He adds, “What you gain is so much more than what you give up.” Dr. and Anne Ornish also point out that every (even small) step counts. They emphasize it’s “not all-or-nothing” but an approach that emphasizes a spectrum of lifestyle change.
The Ornish lifestyle program is one of the first Medicare covered intensive cardiac rehabilitation programs to reverse coronary heart disease, because it’s been proven to work. Visit Ornish.com for more information.
Our interview continues with a discussion about the influence of community, depression, social media and more, on chronic disease. Dr. Ornish gives his advice on how to stick to a change in food intake and other lifestyle habits, and how the Mediterranean diet differs from the Ornish diet for heart disease reversal.
But, the practical scientist that he is, he reinforces that cutting CRRAHP™ (calorie rich, refined and highly processed) foods, increasing fiber rich foods like beans and lentils and eating low total (and especially saturated) fat, no matter which “diet” you choose, improves health. And remember: What you gain is so much more than what you “give up!”
In addition to lowering blood pressure, blood sugar, cholesterol and weight:
• Microbiome matters: the amyloid in the brain that’s often seen in Alzheimer’s really begins in your gut.
• Ounce for ounce, lentils and beans often have more protein than steak… without the harmful stuff.
• Food can be delicious as well as nutritious: you don’t have to sacrifice taste for healthy lifestyles
• Awareness is always the first step in healing.
Dr Tom: [00:00:00] Lifestyle is medicine when done, right? Especially food choices has the potential to eliminate 80% of chronic disease. Our mission is to be the trusted signal of truth, based on the weight of the evidence that rises above the deafening noise of misinformation,
Kathleen: we offer you a no nonsense and enjoyable approach to the fundamentals of nutrition and wellness.
Our goal is to give you simple and actionable strategy so you can make smart. Health promoting decisions every day.
Dr Tom: Welcome to the true health revealed podcast. I am one of your co-host Dr. Tom Raphi lifestyle medicine specialist, and medical and wellness director for Magna international CEO of reality, meet science and I'm accompanied by my awesome award winning co-host Kathleen.
Zelman a registered dietician nutrition specialist. Always fantastic to have you here. And I know Beth, you, you are just as happy as I, that we have the preeminent. Dr. Dean [00:01:00] Ornish with us. He is the founder and president of the nonprofit preventive medicine research Institute and clinical professor of medicine at both university of California, San Francisco and San Diego.
If you don't know who Dr. Dean Ornish is, I'm not sure where you've been, but I'll give a brief bio. He received his MD from Baylor and was a clinical fellow in medicine at Harvard. And completed an internship and residency in internal medicine at mass general hospital. And beyond that, he earned his bachelor of arts and humanities Summa, CU from the university of Texas in Austin, where he gave the baccalaureate address.
And for over four decades, he has directed clinical research demonstrating reversal of coronary artery disease without drugs or surgery. This is with lifestyle as medicine. Okay. That's the, the theme of our podcast. Stopping and reversing the progression of, uh, early stage prostate cancer, turning on disease, preventing genes and turning off genes that promote cancer and heart disease.
And, uh, to kind of cut to the chase is now [00:02:00] doing some great work in the prevention of progression of early Alzheimer's disease. So, and he is also the author of multiple books, seven books, but most recently the incredible and phenomen. Book undo it coauthored by his wonderful wife, Ann Ornish, which was published by random houses, their lead nonfiction title in January of 2019.
And his three main stage Ted talks have been viewed by over 7 million people. So I hope we kept that short enough, but you deserve all of that and more Dr. Ornish welcome to the true health reveal
Dean: podcast. Thank you. That's great to be back,
Dr Tom: you know, um, there is no question that people are interested in lifestyle in terms of, uh, preventing and revers.
Disease and no one has and knows more about where the energy is worth putting in and maybe some mythical, uh, shiny object syndrome, things that go on far too long out there. But if you don't mind, I, I would like to actually start. With some of your recent work on the, uh, [00:03:00] prevention of the progression of dementia while heart disease, which we now know what's good for the heart is good for the brain and certainly even cancer.
No question drive concern in the general public. I think there's a real growing interest in terms of quality of life in the prevention, the potential of lifestyle to. Dementia. Uh, if you don't mind, I would love to hear some, uh, updates and your thoughts regarding where we might be going with lifestyle and the ownership approach when it comes to the reverse, uh, to the prevention of dementia.
Maybe, maybe even mitigating it. If it's already mildly in, in play your thoughts, sir.
Dean: Yeah. Well, I appreciate the question. I think we're to place with, with, uh, dimension particular, I mean, all dimension general and Alzheimer's in particular, very reminiscent of where we were 45 years ago. And I started doing research on lifestyle and heart disease back then.
It was thought once you had heart disease, the, the best you could do would be to slow down the rate at which it got worse. Uh, we found that more intensive lifestyle changes and changing several [00:04:00] factors at the same time could not only slow it down or even stop it, but often reverse. and I think with, uh, the case with Alzheimer's, for example, we know as you say, what's good for your heart is good for your brain.
The same biological mechanisms that affect heart disease also affect, uh, Alzheimer's the same risk factors for heart disease affect Alzheimer's in dementia in general. Uh, vascular dementia is probably easier to prevent and. Often reverse than Alzheimer's we're in the midst of doing a randomized trial now.
So we'll, we'll know more, uh, once we finish the study, but the point of the undo it book that you mentioned in your intro, that my wife, Anne and I, who we've worked together for 26 years now, uh co-authored which came out in paperback just, uh, recently is we, we put forth this new radical unifying theory radical in the sense of radical really means to get to the root of something.
Uh, and that is. With all this interest in, uh, personalized medicine. Why is it that these same lifestyle [00:05:00] changes? What we've found over the last four decades can not only prevent, but often reverse the progression of the most common and costly chronic diseases. Coronary heart diseases. I mentioned type two diabetes, high blood pressure, high cholesterol, obesity, early stage prostate cancer.
Uh, when you change your lifestyle, Changes your genes. Over 500 genes we found were beneficially affected in effect, turning on the good genes, turning off the bad ones, uh, length and telomeres thes of our chromosomes that regulate cellular aging, um, and perhaps even affect the progression of, uh, early stage Alzheimer's disease.
And I was trained. Like you were to view all these different chronic diseases, being fundamentally different, different diseases, different diagnoses, and different treatments. But what I've come to believe is that while there are some differences that they have more in common than they have different, because they all share the same underlying biological mechanisms, things like chronic inflammation, oxidative stress changes in the microbiome and telomeres and gene expression.
And [00:06:00] angiogenes. In immune function, over simulation of the sympathetic nervous system and so on. And each one of these biological mechanisms in turn is directly influenced by what we eat, how we respond to stress, how much exercise we get, whether or not we smoke and how much, uh, love and social support we have.
The, the book begins with one of my favorite quotes, which is, uh, attributed to Albert Einstein, which is, if you can't explain it simply, you don't understand it well enough. And so. I tried to, uh, reduce it to its essence, you know, eat well, move more stress, less, love more. That's it. and uh, the more diseases we study, the more scientific evidence we have to show how powerful these changes are and how quickly people can often get better.
Um, you know, one of the biggest obstacles I find, and I'm sure you do too, is that people think, oh, diet and lifestyle. That's kind of boring. You know, everybody knows that's good for you, but that's kind of boring, you know, am I gonna live longer? Is it just gonna seem longer, you know, All that kind of stuff.
Um, well, you know, it has to be a new drug, a new [00:07:00] laser, something really a device, a surgical procedure, something really high tech and expensive to be powerful. And I think our unique contribution over the years has been to show using these very high tech expensive state-of-the art scientific measures, how powerful these simple changes are and how quickly we can measure objective improvements in, uh, in a wide variety of, of these different.
Measures. And so that kind of radically simplifies what we tell people. It's not like there's one diet for heart disease, a different one for diabetes, a different one for dementia. It's really the same for all of them. It helps explain why we find what. Called comorbidities. The same person will often have multiple of these conditions.
They'll have heart disease type two diabetes, um, high cholesterol, high blood pressure, obesity, et cetera, all in the same person or in, uh, In the case of epidemiological, uh, studies, you know, 50 or 60 years ago, heart disease and diabetes. And all these chronic conditions were very rare in, uh, countries like China and other Asian countries until they [00:08:00] started to eat like us and live like us.
And now all too often die like us. And so, um, it's, uh, it really kind of radically simplifies them and makes it conceptually much easier for people to underst. That's great. That is,
Dr Tom: uh, I think that's a wonderful way to wrap into the, the fact that it's our general lifestyle. That's leading to a multitude of seemingly different, but really they're just windows into the metabolic machine.
Is there still, and maybe just a quick comment and then handed off to caffeine, a, a role for other factors, you mentioned inflammation and, and the microbiome and so forth. Love discussing all of those, but for the straightforwards, right? The blood pressure, the lipids, blood sugar insulin, all those improvements also align with healthier
Dean: lifestyle.
Well, they're all part of the same pattern, you know, um, that, you know, the microbiome, there are a hundred trillion cells in our gut. We have actually more cells that are not technically us than are. Um, and for example, the amyloid in the brain that's often seen in Alzheimer's really begins in your gut.
And [00:09:00] so all of these things interrelate, but it can radically simplify what we need to do about. And again, it's not all or nothing. So the, the diet is essentially, ideally is a whole fed whole food plant based diet, essentially a vegan diet, fruits, vegetables, whole grains, legumes, soy products, as you find them in nature, low in fat, low in sugar, low in, uh, processed foods.
Um, but again, it's not all or nothing to the degree that you move in that direction. There's a corresponding benefit. Uh, you know, if you indulge yourself, if you, if you're trying to reverse a life threatening condition, that is the pound of cure, if you will, it takes a lot to reverse a chronic disease.
That's why we're able to show for the first time in so many cases that that was possible. But if you're just trying to lose a few pounds or get your cholesterol down a few points or your blood pressure, or just overall feel better, the more you change, the more you improve at any age. And so if you indulge yourself one day, it doesn't mean you cheated or you're bad, or you failed.
Eat healthier. The next you don't have time to exercise one day, do a little more. The next, you don't have [00:10:00] time to meditate for an hour, do it for a minute, whatever you do. There's a corresponding benefit over here. And as you do more, you start to feel better. And as you feel better, it begins to reframe the reason for making these changes from fear of dying, which is not sustainable to joy and pleasure, and love and feeling good, which are, and then you go, oh, what I gain is so much more than what I give up.
It's not. I mean, it's especially extreme in someone say, who has bad heart disease and they get chest pain when they do much of anything. And so when they find that after in most cases, after a few weeks, they can do all those things that they couldn't do before they can, you know, walk across the street without getting chest pain or make love with their partner or play with their kids, or go back to work without getting chest pain and within a few.
Then they say things like, you know, I like eating cheeseburgers, but not that much. Cuz what I gain is so much more than what I give up and quickly, you know? Yeah. I'll probably live longer, but telling somebody who's not feeling good and often depressed, if they're gonna live longer, doesn't necessarily motivate them.
They just say, Hey, I'm just trying to get through the day. And so the diet is important. The [00:11:00] exercise, you know, if you like it, you'll do it. So usually some combination of strength, training and aerobic. You know, walking a half an hour a day, for example, um, meditation and other yoga based stress management techniques, they can be done either in a secular or in a, um, a spiritual way, uh, just, you know, whatever way appeals to you.
And the time that we spend with our friends and families and loved ones is not a luxury that we do after we've done the important stuff that it is the important stuff. And study after study have shown that, you know, the real epidemic isn't just COVID or heart disease. Diabetes, it's loneliness and depression and people who are lonely and depressed are three to 10 times more likely to get sick and die prematurely than those who have a sense of love and connection and community.
And so by addressing all these factors at the same time, most people feel so much better so quickly. It makes it sustainable for them.
Kathleen: I love the pillars of your program. I think it's so central that it's the whole person that we're not just talking about diet, which is where there's so [00:12:00] much focus. And I'm also, you know, I, I wanna applaud you because the fact that that Medicare will reimburse members for your program is just, well, it, it, it was the first, first time Medicare's ever done anything like that and just shows the belief that the government has in the program.
So who are the best candidates to, I mean, I, I, you mentioned the spectrum and I know that's one of your books as. That you don't have to do all or nothing. Cuz the vegan diet. I think Tom and I profess that we're both flexitarians and so we enjoy that occasional cheeseburger or whatever our, our favorite, um, indulgence might be.
But um, following vegan diet, especially one that's very low and fat is, is challenging. So how do we, how do we encourage people that who are the best candidates that really ought of focus? That aspect of the diet and all of us, I think will benefit from that spectrum of just trying to do follow all of your pillars and as well as a whole [00:13:00] food plant forward type of a diet.
Dean: Yeah, well, um, in 2010, after many years of review, uh, CMS created a new benefit category, Medicare benefit category to cover my reversing heart disease program called intensive cardiac rehab. And we've been training hospitals and clinics and physician groups around the country. And it's working. We're getting bigger changes in lifestyle, better clinical outcomes, bigger cost savings, better adherence, better engage.
That anyone's ever shown before, but the other game changer happened just a few months ago in October, when they agreed to cover my reversing heart disease program, when we do it via zoom virtually. So now you can do it in the comfort of your own home. You don't have to be, uh, living near one of the sites we've trained.
You can do it anywhere in the country, really anywhere in the world. And, um, And that makes it so much easier. A lot of people don't want to go to hospitals anyway and particularly be in a, you know, a closing that other COVID, uh, you know, where people are breathing hard and sweating and so on. Now you can [00:14:00] do it from the comfort of your own home.
Medicare will reimburse it at the same rate. That's great. And so, um, this will also help reduce, um, health disparities and health inequities because we can work with people in, in rural areas or. Uh, food deserts or whatever. So if anyone's listening to this and you have heart disease or know someone who has and are interested in learning more about our, um, reversing heart disease program, which Medicare and Aetna and other companies are now covering virtually, uh, just go to ornish.com, O R N I S H.com and, um, leave us your name and we'll send you some information on it.
But you know, the I, one way to look at being, uh, going on a vegan diet is well that's for the really sick people. And that is what it takes for most sick people to reverse their disease. But as the game changers documentary showed, there are lots of other reasons reading a plant-based diet besides trying to, uh, reverse chronic diseases.
Um, athletic performance improves, you know, these, the documentary, which now has over 200 million downloads, a highly recommend it called the game changers. um, talks [00:15:00] about athletes in various sports who raised their athletic performance when they went on a plant based diet, you know, Tom Brady being a great example or, uh, the Tennessee Titans won their first super bowl or dosy Buch, uh, got a Olympic medal in cycling.
Uh, one of the most demanding, uh, sports at the age of almost 40. Uh, it also showed how their sexual performance improves. There's a, the scene that really convinced a lot of people to change was. A scene of these three young athletes and they gave them a single meat-based meal and they put a device around their penis at night to measure how frequently and hard, hard their erections were.
And then did it the next night after a single plant-based meal. And all three guys had three to 500% more frequent erections and 10 to 15% harder ones. Apparently the, the film crew went on a plant based side after shooting that scene. but it feels really clearly that again, what you gain is so much more than what you give up.
And again, it's not all or nothing, but there are other reasons for following a plant based side that go beyond just the personal. My, um, son is a accomplished musician [00:16:00] and one of his favorite indie bands is called PAC V U L F P E C K. And they, um, We're playing at the Greek theater at the university of California, Berkeley a few years ago, right before COVID hit.
And, um, their front man is a vegan and, and he wanted, so we went backstage. We, he wanted to, to meet. And so he said, you know, during my concerts, I usually spend 15 or 20 minutes in the middle of my concert, explaining to why to people, why I'm on a plant-based diet. And I often talk about your work and since you're here, why don't you talk about it yourself?
I said, what you want me to call in the middle of your concert and talk about why people should be on a plant-based diet to a group of, you know, people are in their 19 20, 21, 22 year olds, you know, they could care less about, they think they're imortal they're they're not gonna worry. You know, heart attacks and so on.
So I said, okay, so I did it. And for 15 minutes I was cool to my son, which of course didn't last, but at least temporarily I was, and I didn't talk about heart disease and diabetes. I said, you know, it's so easy to feel overwhelmed by all the bad stuff that's going on in the world. You know, what [00:17:00] can I do as one person about making a difference with global warming or feeding the hungry or the deforestation of the Amazon, or, you know, um, The ridiculous rise in how much money we're spending on healthcare.
Well, it turns out that something as primal as what you put in your mouth every day affects all of those things that more global warming is caused by livestock consumption than all forms of transportation combined, that it takes 14 times more resources to make a pound of meat-based protein than plant-based protein.
There's enough food to feed everybody. If more people ate that way, uh, the deforestation of the Amazon is largely to, uh, Uh, GRA land to graze cattle, uh, you know, 7 billion cattle are killed every year that don't necessarily need to be that after leading these horrible lives. And, uh, you know, 86% of the almost $4 trillion we spent on healthcare goes for chronic diseases that are often, uh, preventable or even reversible by changing lifestyle.
And it's not all or nothing, just, you know, have a meatless Monday or just whatever you do. But I've [00:18:00] learned that if it's meaningful, then it's sustain. If it's, if it's pleasurable, it's sustainable. And so when you make these changes, both from the fact that it's good for you and good for the planet, it's personally sustainable, it's globally sustainable that for all these reasons, um, I find that, that it allows us to imbue what we eat with a sense of meaning.
And that sense of meaning ultimately is, is as much as the diet and keeping us healthy and, and, uh, feeling good, but also it's what makes it sustain.
Dr Tom: Dr or you brought up, um, love and, and the, the issue of social support comes to mind in terms of your work and, and how you engage life partners, uh, spouses and so on, and family members that are inside that, that strong internal network, particularly people that you live with.
And when sometimes they're not always on the same page. Uh mm-hmm and how you translate. Discussion, and, and I'm sure that you, in, in, in many ways, and this is what the question is regarding include them and, and how to, you know, without over [00:19:00] expecting, because you know, you, you've got stages of readiness for change and everybody, and that's where the spectrum is so powerful in the individual that we're targeting.
But that individual is surrounded by a social network. Um, what are some comments you have regarding that and, and trying. And gender the type of support and, and, uh, nudging across the stages of readiness for change, not in the sub in the particular patient, but in the social network that most intimately surrounds them.
Dean: Well, it's an important question. And, you know, we tend to think that, uh, the time we spend with our friends and families and loved ones are the, uh, the, kind of the, what you do after you've done all the important stuff. That's, you know, it turns out that is the important stuff. And it's important for a number of reasons.
One of the reasons why people are more likely to get sick when they and die prematurely, when they're lonely depressed, is that a lot of the behaviors that people do that are ultimately, uh, destructive, um, Are adaptive to this sense of, of. Loneliness and depression to help [00:20:00] people kind of get through the day.
I've had people say things like I've got 20 friends of this pack of cigarettes, and they're always there for me and nobody else is you're gonna take away my 20 friends. What are you gonna give me? You know, food fills that void fat coats, my nerves and numbs the pain, alcohol numbs, the pain. Uh, we have an opioid epidemic, opioids numb the pain, uh, video games distract me from the pain.
Working all the time, distracts me from the pain. And so I've learned that information while important is not usually sufficient to motivate most people to make lasting changes in their lifestyle. If it were nobody would smoke, it's not like, I'd say, Hey Tom, you know, did you know smoking's bad for you? I want you to quit today and you go, oh, I didn't know that I'll quit tomorrow.
You have no idea, you know, but people, again, you can't just give the information. Can't just focus on behavior. We have to work at a deeper level. And so when we help people. You know, our support groups, for example, are not just designed to have people stay on the diet. They're really recreating that sense of, of, uh, intimacy that is so healing.
Anything that brings us together is healing. Even the word healing comes from the root [00:21:00] to make whole, you know, yoga is from the Sanskrit to yolk, to unite union. These are really old ideas that we're re rediscovering. And so. Um, you know, 50, 60, 70 years ago, most people had an extended family. They saw regularly or live with.
They had a neighborhood with cur through generations of people that lived together and grew up together, knew each other. They had a, a church or synagogue or mosque or club or something. They went to regularly. They had a, a job that felt secure that they'd been at for 10 years or more, and got to know their coworkers and many people today don't have any of those things.
And they say, well, I've got, you know, 3000 Facebook friends, except Facebook is really not an authentic intimacy for most. In fact, one of the studies that we signed in our new book and the undo it book is that, uh, the more time you spent on Facebook, the more depressed you are. Yeah. Why is that? Because you know, people, you know, when you grow up in a, an extended family or a neighborhood with several generations of people, they know you, they don't just know your Facebook profile and all the nice things you said about me when you introduced me at the beginning of this, uh, podcast.
[00:22:00] They know your dark side, they know where you got busted, or you had overdosed or you were arrested or you were, you know, broke that window or whatever it happened to be. And you know, that they know, and they know that you know, that they know, and they're still there for you. And there's just something really primal about being fully seen once and all.
Uh, as opposed to on Facebook where it looks like everybody has this perfect life, but you, you know, here we are in front of the Eiffel tower and here we are in our perfect life. And everybody just feels like the sense of, oh my gosh, you know, I didn't get enough likes or whatever it happens to be. And so if we, so the support groups are really designed to create a safe place for people to really talk authentically about what's really going on in their lives without fear that someone's gonna judge them or criticize them or give them glib advice or make fun of them.
They're just. And there's just something really powerful when somebody can say, you know, I may look like the perfect dad, but my kids got has, is addicted to whatever. And someone else can say, yeah, I've got a drug problem myself. Or my kid has another problem. It doesn't change the fact that the kids still have the problem, [00:23:00] but all this shame and, and, and loneliness and isolation and despondent and all those dark places that are so easy to go to suddenly the light shifts.
And it's the part of my program that people often have the. Questions or even skepticism about, okay, I get the diet, you know, we gotta eat. It's just a question of what and exercise, you know, you're really out there doing something and meditation. That's a little weird, but okay. Stress, we know plays a role.
So let me try that, but love more. What is that about? Well, this is what it's about. That when we have more love and compassion, what Aldo actually called the what Huxley called the perennial philosophy that once you get past all of the rituals, You know, religions and other groups fight and kill each other over, um, that the underlying spiritual.
Themes were really so much the same throughout these different, uh, religions and spiritual practices. You know, love, compassion, altruism, forgiveness. Why is that? Because they work, you know, sometimes when I, uh, talk with patients, I'll say to which organ does your heart pump blood first? And they'll say, I don't know my brain or my.
[00:24:00] Lungs or whatever, what pumps blood to itself first so that it can then pump blood to the rest of the body. Is that a selfish actor as an unselfish act? Well, it's both, you know, when you're forgive somebody, it doesn't condone or excuse what they've done, but it frees you from the, a, from the suffering, the one emotion that's consistently linked with heart disease in so many other conditions is chronic anger.
And, um, you know, when you're angry at somebody else, it poisons you when Nelson Mandela. Was released from prison after being in jail for 26 years. And did his long walk to freedom, he was asked, do you hate your jailers? And he said, well, they took away the best years of my life. I didn't get to watch my kids grow up, but you know, if I have hatred in my heart, then I'm still in prison in my heart.
And so, you know, when we can realize that the most unselfish, the most selfish thing we can do is to be unselfish, to be forgiving and compassionate and loving. Um, it reframes that for many people, you know, there was a study that came out of 148 million tweets on Twitter, and they found that the more anger [00:25:00] that were in those tweets, uh, and they follow these people.
They were more likely to get heart disease than even smoking or diet or any of the usual risk factors. That's how powerful these, these, uh, emotions can be.
Kathleen: It's insane. Well, I wanna dig into the diet a little bit, because what we know is the Mediterranean type diet has been cardioprotective and there's reams of research about the value of that diet plan in general, and it includes, uh, more protein and more healthy fats.
So could you enlighten us.
Dean: Your body needs about 4% of calories from fat to provide the essential fatty acids. The diet that is the reversing heart disease diet is around 10 to 15. It's closer to 15% because we added nuts many years ago, which increased it a bit. The Mediterranean diet is clearly a better diet than what most people have been eating.
That's why, when you compare the Mediterranean diet to, you know, a typical American or other types of diet, then they're gonna look better cuz they, it is. [00:26:00] But it doesn't go far enough to reverse disease. There are no studies showing that a Mediterranean diet can reverse the progression of heart disease.
Um, and so, I mean, there, there are studies that keep coming out. There was one that came out in the Lancet a few months ago where a claim that Mediterranean diet better than low fat diet for preventing heart disease. But the diet went from like 30. 8% to 35%. It was hardly any reduction, but besides reducing fat, the Mediterranean diet people were eating fruit, fresh fruits and vegetables, very low sugar, very low processed foods.
Um, fresh foods. The people on the quote, low fed diet were eating tons of sugar and processed foods and junk foods and so on, but they attributed all to this like 3% different in, in fat. The fat is just one of so many factors that, that, that, uh, affect our health. And there's more and more evidence that the, the source of the protein.
Um, first of all, the diet that I recommend is not low on protein. You get all the protein you that the, uh, RDA requires, but it doesn't have the excessive amounts of protein, which themselves can create problems, kidney [00:27:00] problems, and, and so on. But the. There's more and more evidence that animal protein independent of this whole fat versus carbs debate, uh, increases inflammation and, and is more likely associated, uh, in the Harvard, uh, school of public health studies, the physician's health study, the nurses' health study and, and others that diets that are high in animal protein.
Increase your risk of prostate cancer, pro uh, breast cancer, colon cancer, heart disease, type two diabetes and so on. So we're getting past this focusing on just one nutrient and looking at the whole dietary pattern. Instead,
Dr Tom: first of all, I want to just, uh, add some emphasis and really, uh, love when you said, you know, be fully seen warts and all staying in the food lane and always wanting to kind of dig in a little to our guests own approach.
What are some of Dr. Dean ORs and I'll mention one of mine, favorite bean and lentil based dishes. I, I, this morning I had something called fool, which is an I ironic, uh, you know, a name, uh, a Egyptian Lebanese type dish made with fava [00:28:00] beans and, uh, green onions and taste phenomenal. I have, uh, someone make it for me without the added salt.
And there's so many opportunities and, and low cost opportunities in the word and the world of beans and lentils. Probably one of the most important things we can do. Speaking of if, if you want to use the term I'm air quoting clean proteins, but what, what are some of Dr. Dean Ish's favorite, uh, bean or lentil dishes, or maybe even lead us to a way we can find some of yours and Anne's wonderful recipe.
Dean: Oh, well, sure. Well, thank you. Um, you know, pound, I mean, ounce for ounce, you know, uh, lentils and beans often have more protein than steak, you know, without the, the harmful stuff. And, you know, it's a lot cheaper. Uh, so it's a lot, you know, they, it's a, it's a less expensive and a more helpful way for people to eat all of my books.
Uh, With the exception of the love and survival book, I've written seven books, all six, six of the seven, including the, I undo at the latest book have, um, lots of recipes in there, including some wonderful lentil and bean recipes that I would recommend. I, um, you know, people [00:29:00] there, there's so many false choices.
People think, you know, the only way to go get to live to be a hundred is by not doing all the things that would make you wanna live to be a hundred, you know, all these kind of cliches. And yet, as you found, the food can be delicious and nutritious, you don't have to sacrifice, uh, taste for, uh, Absolutely here, here.
Dr Tom: that is wonderful. What a tour, Dr. Dean Ornish, we can't thank you enough. We know that you have patients awaiting and your time is extremely valuable to them as individuals, but also to. Uh, the large audience that we speak to and we hope has had just a nice appetizer of what you and Anne have to offer.
Uh, your book undo it highly recommended. I have a copy myself. Uh, please go and check it out. And Kathleen, uh, I'm sure you agree, and, uh, are very thankful that we've had a chance to spend some time with the, uh, the leader.
Kathleen: Indeed, indeed.
Dean: Oh, well, I'm, I'm so thankful to be here. And let, let me, and let me also just say that if you go to ornish.com, everything on there is free, uh, including some recipes.
Um, [00:30:00] there's, it's a good source of information in as well as the books. And you know, to me, awareness is always the first step in healing. So I'm grateful to you for helping, uh, raise awareness about. How empowered people can be and how much better they can feel when they begin making these lifestyle choices and your, your
Kathleen: comment, not all or nothing.
And what I gain is so much more than what I give up. I think those are, those are comments that people should resonate in their heads and help them, you know, focus towards a healthier
Dr Tom: lifestyle. Dr. Dean ORs. Thank you for inspiring us all on the true health reveal podcast. That
Kathleen: was awesome. I wanted to talk about prostate cancer, cuz it was the only cancer that he mentioned and you know, that's fascinating.
I understand the relationship with heart disease and brain health and type two diabetes, but prostate cancer specifically. So that was, you know, and I love it. I love the spectrum. I, you know, because vegan is hard. Um, not people are willing to
Dr Tom: do that. Sustainability is you're right. I mean, yeah, you get the most benefit [00:31:00] from the first, the.
Things that you do. And, and ultimately, if it's not sustainable, look, if somebody has severe disease and, and, and because there's so much Piper to pay and they're willing to do so sure. By all means it's evidence based, but the spectrum is as well. And, uh, and a lot of times, as we know, and you know, you know, you and I have talked about this enough, if it's not sustainable, it's not, it's not really that's right.
Relevant. So, but, and what he
Kathleen: said is if it's meaningful, it's sustainable and that's true. So you have to value.
Dr Tom: Yeah, and I love the reframing. I mean the reframing yeah. Of fear fears go right for yeah. Short term motivation. Yes. Yes. But, but joy really drives people and, uh, his touching on the social
Kathleen: component, the love piece.
That's so sweet.
Dr Tom: I love it. War and all you don't often see it right. The war and all. I love it. All right. Well, thank you, Kathleen. That was a great, uh, great episode. And, uh, yeah. What a, what an amazing. As we're coming and, and kind of winding into the end of the first season, what a great partnership it has been with you.
Can't thank you enough. And likewise, looking forward to our next one enough for true health revealed. Yeah. Okay.
Dean: Take care, everyone. [00:32:00]
Dr Tom: Thank you for listening to the true health revealed podcast. We appreciate your time and hope you'll join us again for more information on today's episode and to subscribe to future podcast.
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