Cambridge Professor and Obesity Geneticist, Giles Yeo (pronounced YO) PhD and I discuss the genetics and epigenetics of obesity and the influence of our food environment on our collective health, from a practical and actionable level. He makes a strong case why calorie counting is overrated, why BMI is a poor tool to assess metabolic health risk, why fat shaming is not helpful and why he, with all he knows, is a flexitarian. He adds a very interesting story of when he fully stopped meat, and then what happened when he restarted eating it. There’s more too but you’ll just have to listen to find out! #weightstigma
Dr Tom Rifai: [00:00:00] All right. Welcome to true health revealed. I am your host CEO of flex MD internist behavior modification specialist. And I cannot tell you how excited I am to have professor Giles, yo, with us.
Prof Giles Yeo: Thank you for having
Dr Tom Rifai: me, Tom. It is such a pleasure. You know, uh, [00:00:20] professor Dr. Uh, yo received his PhD from the university of Cambridge.
You know, you might've heard of them back in 1998, he's been working on the genetics of severe obesity ever since he a program leader at the MRC metabolic diseases unit in Cambridge has recent. Focuses on the influence of genes on feeding behavior and body weight. And we all need help in that regard [00:00:40] and insights and probably some self-forgiveness.
He might be able to provide us indirectly in the process. Uh, he's a, uh, graduate and tutor and fellow of the Wolfson and the college and honorary president of the British dietetic association. He's also himself, a broadcaster and author of a couple of books. I'm going to mention. The second he presents presenting science documentaries for the BBC has [00:01:00] got a podcast at Dr.
Giles. He'll choose the fat and his first book, gene eating. It was published back in 2018 and now he has why calories don't count and know, he's not trying to argue against the first law of thermodynamics. Listen to them. You'll get it. Just stick. Uh, I was appointed an MBE in the Queens 2020 birthday honors for services [00:01:20] to research, communication, and engagement and welcome
Prof Giles Yeo: Dr.
Yo, listen, this is a pleasure. Thank you for having me.
Dr Tom Rifai: It is so wonderful to have you now for full disclosure. I want to make clear, most people may know at this point are listening, but I myself have a binge eating disorder. I'm recovering. I lost my youngest [00:01:40] brother to binge eating disorder. He had almost a 400 pounds.
Uh, before he passed. And so this is the area of genetics and what you do, uh, and, um, and some particular separately in a real interest in, in commonality, in our thoughts over protein and fiber, I believe which we'll get to, I I'm just excited. Let's get right into it. Okay. So, um, we have, uh, heard the [00:02:00] term and use the term, you know, genetics loads, the gun, but lifestyle pulls the trigger and I wanted to start with a story of a.
Uh, of a colleague at a health system, I used to work for as a medical director for metabolic nutrition and weight management. And he brought me over in the doctor's lounge and said, Hey Tom, Hey, have you ever seen the show? My 600 pound life? And I said on yang, and of course I [00:02:20] bet I've seen the show and I don't watch it a ton because after I leave work, I like to take a break.
Uh, but he said, you know, that, that, uh, current guy that they had on their hate doesn't have terrible genetics. And I thought to myself, wow, Why don't you try to eat yourself to 600 pounds and see if you survive. Maybe that does the kind of guy that would have been the hunter gatherer chief, [00:02:40] and been able to survive throughout the millennia with that lack of, uh, food and food deprivation.
And it's really the permissive environment that's causing the issue. I don't know that it's his genes per se. I'll kind of stop there and, and, and let that simmer and, and love to get your.
Prof Giles Yeo: So my thoughts, my thoughts are that every single human trait [00:03:00] and behavior, every single trading behavior, including our body weight has a genetic influence, but, and I'm a geneticist by, by, by trade.
But I think the mistake is to think that when you're a geneticists and you dev was study genes by its very definition that we study genes in isolation because our genes do not exist in isolation. Our genes exists to help [00:03:20] us adapt to the environment. In fact, our genes are oppressed. Off our adaptation to the environment.
And so if throughout the most of human history, most of, of life's history, actually we are in a situation in which we don't get enough food broadly speaking. And so we spend our lives scrambling about trying to find that. [00:03:40] Then when a modern environment, um, suddenly shows up 30 years ago, that is so very different to what we are actually adapted to then our genes.
There's almost a discrepancy, shall we say, uh, you know, between the genes in which we we've evolved to have it [00:04:00] in the environment we evolved to actually be in to this modern environment. So what has happened is that our genes just happened to be. It evolved for a different time and suddenly the environment has changed.
And so some of us are just don't respond very well.
Dr Tom Rifai: It seems like there's a mismatch. And sometimes one night I hear the [00:04:20] limitation of why is so-and-so so thin or this, that, and the other thing they don't even try. I said, that's because their genetic mistakes, or maybe you could say their evolutions, uh, evolution of, of genes, but 100% here, you there'll be Citi epidemic has been so rapid.
It seems epigenetics aside, which I would like to discuss with you in a bit that it would, it's it's hard. The argument that the [00:04:40] genes are driving the issue per se, at least alone, that there's this environmental trigger of a lot of, well, I mean, where can you go that they're not selling? And this is my term.
I don't mean to offend you. Mm Giles, but it crap, which stands for calorie, rich, refined and highly processed. C R a H P [00:05:00] there's crap. And I need a little crap, by the way, I have a 5% fun zone. I'm a, flexitarian like you, I heard you mentioned that. I'd like to talk about that a bit, but zero tolerance doesn't work, but when it's constantly, always in your face at the buy buy baby at the home Depot, at the movie theater how are we supposed to deal with that in that with our genetic predisposition?[00:05:20]
Prof Giles Yeo: No. I mean, that is that, that is a difficulty. And I, and I think while I studied the genetic variation of how we respond to the environment, Just do not think we will sustainably fix the problem of obesity and other diet related illnesses. I want to point out without also fixing the environment. So I do think we [00:05:40] have to have a holistic view.
I mean, working in academia, we are by its very nature, almost slightly myopic, slightly short-sighted and what we actually work with, you know, we're sitting in a lab, we, we, we focus on our one little thing, but in doing the broadcasting and speaking and meeting. I now fully, fully understand that, just understanding [00:06:00] the biology, you know, that gives us a good grounding, but we have to fix the environment if we're going to fix the problem.
Dr Tom Rifai: And I thank you for that because there's so many. Um, and I think men well-meaning clinicians that ask people to get, to get to a normal BMI. I, I wonder if many people have changed their bodies to such an extent that that [00:06:20] might be literally uh untoured and if they were to achieve a. I mean, let alone 15, 20, 20%, 25% weight reduction.
And many of the severe obese would clearly still not have a normal BMI, but they would be really darn good, relatively speaking. We're but we're not going to normalize everybody's BMI. Is it necessary to [00:06:40] normalize everyone's BMI? You can kind of get me hinting at the, my issues with BMI, but feel free to comment.
Prof Giles Yeo: So look, I think, is it true that we are as a species? Carrying too much fat now. Okay. Because I guess it's always interesting to say, well, what does, [00:07:00] what does obesity mean? You know, and, and you're right. People said, Ooh, oh, to be OB. So being, oh, obesity is a BMI above 30, but that's just a number. And it doesn't actually mean a lot.
It's a measure. Um, whereas I think it is better to say. There are some of us who, who are carrying too much [00:07:20] fat, that it begins to influence our health. And that is my debt. That is I think the correct definition of obesity. The interesting thing, however, is that different people reach carrying too much fat at different BMI's.
And that is the critic. That is the critical point. And so there are going to be larger people who are perfectly metabolically [00:07:40] healthy, and you're going to have skinny people with type two diabetes. Why? Right. And I think a large part of that is. We all have different levels of fat that we can store safely.
Um, and some are more, some are more than others. I mean, famously south Asian people. So Indians, Pakistanis, Bangladeshis, east Asian peoples people [00:08:00] that look like me, I'm ethnically Chinese. Um, and we famously cannot. Anywhere close to a BMI of 30 before we expose ourselves to all the risks of, of metabolic disease.
Whereas, um, white people famously Polynesians. Okay. Can get enormous before they actually put themselves [00:08:20] at risk. So I think BMI is you're right. Is a fine measure for population biology. You know, you're trying to track population BMI assess, Ooh, you know how, how large is the population, but for an individual dealing with BMI.
I would say not so helpful because all it's telling you, it's telling you about size [00:08:40] it doesn't
Dr Tom Rifai: maybe at the extreme ends within that huge middle. I couldn't agree more. And I think you were implying too with the normal weight, uh, uh, if you will type two diabetic or pre-diabetic that we have, uh, issues of lack of physical activity, maybe muscle loss and fat to muscle, maybe fat to active muscle ratio might be better, but there there's [00:09:00] more far more to it than BMI.
Fair enough.
Prof Giles Yeo: Absolutely. And in fact, I think certainly as you get older, as, as you've mentioned, what is more critical than anything is the fat active fat as you, sorry, muscle. Pardon me? Active muscle to fat ratio. Don't know the more, um, skeletal muscle, the more, [00:09:20] the more muscle you actually carry it. The, the better off people do.
Um,
Dr Tom Rifai: Um, I, I want to get into more of the expertise topics, but if you don't mind, um, you are so passionate about this. Uh I'm I feel like I've, I've, I've met my match in that area. I would always want to know why, why, what is it that, um, that, uh, that, that [00:09:40] triggered, if you will you to say this is my fascination, but there's gotta be something I'd love to hear that I haven't yet heard that background story.
Maybe it's out there, but I'm sure our listeners would love.
Prof Giles Yeo: So my background stories, I've always been interested in genetics. So my undergraduate, which was at, um, university of California, Berkeley, um, [00:10:00] was in molecular genetics. That's what I did my undergrad in. And then my PhD was in molecular genetics on a very niche topic of, um, uh, genetics of the Japanese puffer fish.
Yeah, exactly. It wasn't going to pay my mortgage. So when I finished my PhD, I ended up just using my genetic. [00:10:20] The skills that I obviously picked up during my PhD and almost by accident, I moved into genetics of extreme obesity get out, but there was a work that was being done in the department at the time the gene leptin had just been discovered.
Um, and I joined the group as a geneticists screening. Severely severely [00:10:40] obese kids. So this is not normal range BMI at all. Okay. These are kids who are really severely obese and began to identify severe, like really, really quite disruptive genetic mutations. Caused obesity rather than what we're talking about, where the environment influences it.
These [00:11:00] are genetic diseases that caused obesity. And so that was fine. Okay. And this was what we were doing. And we were, this was, this would have been 19 98, 19 99, 2000. So quite a while ago, but what, what became interesting is, and people always accused our team of. Of [00:11:20] studying something that was not relevant to the rest of humankind, blah, blah.
You're looking at these freaks take. They used the word, they used the word I was at dinner once. And someone pointed at me and say, you study freaks. What a very rude, I want to point out, what is this? How is this relevant to normal human biology? And it was at this [00:11:40] point and I was thinking, Hey, I'm trying to have dinner.
You're very rude. So, um, but second I was thinking, is he. Okay. And then I went and I reflected, and I don't think he was right. I think we were trying to look at the extremes of biology in order to understand new biology, because how, how best to [00:12:00] understand how something works, but then if something is broken.
Right, right. And so then you can understand normal balance. Then when we began moving into normal biology mechanisms, and we begin to realize that the genetics of bodyweight was by definition, the genetics of how our brain [00:12:20] influence our feeding behavior. That really got me interested in, in just this whole.
Field of bodyweight because then the moment you looked and I've always found bodyweight an interesting thing at the now today, if you were a public figure and you went on TV or [00:12:40] radio, if you were a politician, and if you made sexist comments, racist comments, um, you know, gender biased comments. Okay. You will lose your job.
But yeah. You are able to make comments about someone else's body rate. Okay. And not in a nice way [00:13:00] and it be accepted. And it was at this point, I said, why is you, you know, the study of bodyweight? Why are people in larger bodies? So. Discriminated against why is that this weight stigma. And it was at that point that I really, really became seriously passionate about the work that I did, that I took it beyond just being an academic interest with which is [00:13:20] still is for me.
Um, but it then became something which I said, look, we have to remove weight stigma. And if I, by understanding biology and communicating the biology, we're able to remove where at least reduce some of the weight stigma, then I've performed my role in life. This was.
Dr Tom Rifai: And thank you. Thank you. Thank you for that.
[00:13:40] I am, uh, you know, always, uh, reminded frankly that my youngest brother bays a largely dry diet of fat shaming, but that being said, I have a, uh, a question about childhood since you brought up and, and, and I don't want to presume I know your answer because it may be in some certain direction, but how important is.[00:14:00]
Uh, childhood experience in terms of food, exposures, behaviors, and patterns that may or may not be so easy to change. Is it overrated? Is it like, well, you know, they're, they're really resilient and you know, I'm exaggerating, obviously don't worry about it and they it'll take care of [00:14:20] can take care of itself.
Uh, The other direction. And if so, how much, what, what are your thoughts on the, the experience of a child? Um, and maybe not the ones you were studying initially, but in terms of the, uh, the experience of metabolic diseases and their risk that related to behavioral, uh, experiences in childhood, I
Prof Giles Yeo: think, and I think it is.[00:14:40]
Crucial I'll come back and caveat this in, in a second. And I'll, I guess the, the example I will use about why childhood experiences are so important are our differences in culture, our differences in food culture. Okay. So, all right, look, I'm going to send up, I love my carbohydrates. I do. Okay. [00:15:00] But my favorite kabba.
I don't want to back myself into a stereotype. It is rice. It is okay. And that's because that is primarily rice and noodles is primarily what I ate as a child right now. You're going to have other, my wife, my wife, who's who? Who's who's English. Okay. And her favorite carbohydrate [00:15:20] is undoubtedly bread.
That is her favorite cup carbohydrate. May I can take it or leave it. So that's a classic example where I can love carbohydrates, but then like a form of carbohydrates because of what I was exposed to. All through my youth. Okay. So that is just an example [00:15:40] of what kind of carbohydrates you might like now, suddenly if you then expand that okay.
Into a situation where children are now getting exposed to the food environment, we are actually in okay. To your. Acronym crap rather than right. Rather than actually any other crap. Well, then you begin to see, [00:16:00] well, what are children learning about eating? What are they expecting? We know when they actually face a meal when they're actually going to, and you realize how important it actually is given our cultural, but all our individual cultural biases.
Okay. And for better or for worse. So I do think it is absolutely [00:16:20] critical. Do I think it is irreversible. No, no, no. I don't think it is irreversible, but it is. Because that will be beat damning most of the population, you know, and that's not, that is not what I'm, I'm trying to say. I'm trying to say that it is very important that we protect our children today because it will actually help them from [00:16:40] facing problems later.
And for those of us who, who, you know, who are already been exposed to whatever childhood childhood we were exposed to, well, then we have to fix that, uh, the, the issues then as well. But the exposures and childhood to my mind are critically ill.
Dr Tom Rifai: I couldn't agree more. Thank you for the details of your thoughts [00:17:00] on that.
No, you have brought up that you are as am I, and it's a pretty well known him. I'm the CEO of flex MD. I'm a flexitarian so there's going to be very friendly questioning, uh, and I don't want to presuppose why, uh, just would love to hear, because you described yourself as such and I, and I think it's, it's wonderful, but I'll stop there and just ask [00:17:20] why flexitarian for ciao.
Prof Giles Yeo: Um, so I, uh, there was a TV show, which I presented, uh, a while back, um, co presented called trust me, I'm a doctor and I'm not that kind of doctor, but it was a magazine health program. Okay. I hear on the BBC and this was probably, we must have been four years ago or three years ago. [00:17:40] And to produce this, came to me and said, Ooh, Um, we would like to explore whether or not a vegan diet is healthy for you or not.
Now, for those of you out there listening, there are many reasons why you might choose to go vegan. It could be ethical, it could be environmental. All of these are perfectly legitimate reasons, but this was a [00:18:00] health program. And so I said, okay, let, let let's do it. I was a little bit, I have to say I faced it with some trepidation because I am an.
Um, I, and I can, I'll just say it honestly. I'm a meatatarian I love meat. I love my meat. Um, but I was thinking to myself, let's give this a go. I looked at my belly is a little bit too [00:18:20] wobbly for me. And I think, Ooh, maybe, maybe a little change to through my diet might help. And so I went, I didn't only go vegan.
I went plant based for a month for just a month. And over that. Um, and I got into the cooking and I learned new recipes and I realized that I had really nothing to fear.
Dr Tom Rifai: So just to be clear, this has [00:18:40] minimally processed plant pure, correct. When you say plant, okay, go ahead.
Prof Giles Yeo: Pop base. So in other words, uh, eating whole foods.
Got it. So, so I, I stayed away from. Um, I stayed away from French fries. I stayed away from Oreos. Yeah. Whereas I actually stuck with beans and pulses and [00:19:00] lentils and, and, and that kind of stuff. Um, and I, and I ate as much as I could literally for four a month and yet ended up losing 11 pounds just in debt, just in that month.
And I said, This is interesting. And then when I came off, w w when I came off the experiment and a diet, and I've been measured in and [00:19:20] out, I rent, then I turn back to my meaty ways. Um, and I gained back half of the weight, which I'd lost over the month. In five days, literally likely. And is that this point?
I was going, hang on a second. I went through this [00:19:40] situation. I lost the weight. I felt good. Um, I'm putting this weight on really, really quickly again, and it's because I love meat and I love animals. I love eggs actually in particular. And so I thought. Look, I'm in my I'm now in my late forties coming up to 50.
And so at the time I was going, why don't I try now? I'm now that I'm not afraid of vegan recipes, plant-based [00:20:00] recipes. I can go into a supermarket and I can say, Ooh, I want to do this meal or that meal. And I could do it. Well, what happens if I go flexitarian what happens if two to three times a week, I just am vegan.
Yeah. Or eat a plant-based meal. How would that do? And that was three, four years ago. And do you know what? I kept the weight off? I feel better. I feel healthy. It's [00:20:20] sustainable for me. I think it probably is better for the environment because I've reduced my meat intake by 30%.
Dr Tom Rifai: Yeah, that's great. I love it.
That's fantastic. I think those are probably the reasons why for, you know, beyond the, maybe not as much depth of science that the U S news and world report comes out with the best diets every year. And flexitarian just keeps on [00:20:40] going up. And now it's really kissing the tail of Mediterranean, which, um, you know, I mean, with all due respect and I mean, this kindly to people who follow and I am Mediterranean, that's why I'm a board certified bread, a holic.
I completely identify with. Y, if my parents came from Syria, where in the word Arabic that they can exchange the word bread [00:21:00] and life though the same word, uh, that being said. Um, you know, the, the sustainability of it, I think has allowed the, those experts in the U S news and world report committee to rank it so high for weight loss.
I think it was number one, tied with the WW and number two with dash, right under Mediterranean, consistently across the board. [00:21:20] Because as you say, sustainable, it's disciplined, but without extremism and without
Prof Giles Yeo: extremists, you know, you can have Christmas, Thanksgiving, whatever you going to have, and to sure have your family.
Thing, but then during the regular working week, you know, at lunchtime, like I'm pretty much nearly vegetarian, certainly, uh, mostly, [00:21:40] uh, vegan during lunch because in the office or the lab, you know, when I go down and I buy something, well, do I really have to have meat, for example. So that's a good time for me just to do it when I come home in the evening and I want to have a bigger meal.
Well then maybe I will break out some meat. And I just felt that it was. It was a moderate way of doing things. I have to [00:22:00] say, I have to say it because I broadcasted this and I talked about this and I put it on my, on, on, on various socials that I did get a lot of flack from it, from the evangelical side, actually on both ends, but the evangelical of vegans.
And I'm talking about the evangelical, the extremes. Okay. I know lots of people who are, who are vegan and plant-based, this is . [00:22:20] They did not like the fact that I was doing it in a flex way. Um, And I think that is unhelpful. I think that is unhelpful to the cause of health of us and health of the planet.
Uh, number two, by being extreme about it, I really. I,
Dr Tom Rifai: I agree. And I think those like Walter Willett at [00:22:40] Harvard do with the, uh, uh, with the eat Lancet commission on, on sustainability and really believe in flexitarian that that's the best we can ask now for me, I would say so many people won't change their lifestyles.
Hey, the more vegans the better, because we'll have to average out at flexitarian. Uh, so wonderful. I welcome them. But, um, I hear what you're saying. When you mentioned [00:23:00] key sticking to the. Uh, to the nutrition component of it and, and definitely don't want to miss out on the epigenetic, uh, how we decorate our genes discussion.
But, uh, when you say reconciled, you say that calories don't count, but you're not arguing against the first law of thermodynamics, because I think you're totally correct. And people may misunderstand that [00:23:20] headline, but I say, read the book. Uh, it's not it's there's depth, but in summary, how do you reconcile first of thermal day?
And that calories don't count at least in terms of bomb calorimeter if you will, but take the Baton.
Prof Giles Yeo: Okay. So I think in summary it's because we eat food and we don't eat. So we eat food [00:23:40] and our body has to then extract the calories from the food. Okay. And depending on whether or not you've, you're eating a donut, a steak or, or a carrot, your body has to work more or less hard in order to get the calories out, which is.
Calories are all equal. Once they're in you in yourself as a [00:24:00] little proof of energy, that's when they're equal, but in the food form they're not equal. So look, I understand that 200 calories of potato chips is twice the portion of 100. Of potato chips, but no one is, is, but so is 200 grams of chips twice.
The portion of 100 grams of potato chips. [00:24:20] And no one here is trying to compare 200 grams of chips to 200 grams of carrots. It's not quite that extreme, but that in effect is it. And so different foods have different caloric availabilities. Our body has to work more or less hard and can extract a percentage of the calories from the food and they do differ.[00:24:40]
From food to food
Dr Tom Rifai: while the, yes, I think what the, uh, what was there? Well, there has been studies on nuts and, and I think it was almonds in which only 75% of the calories were absorbed from whole nuts versus almond butter. And, you know, they actually literally had to go through stool to figure this out from the residue.
And, and I can't imagine that for instance, Uh, or [00:25:00] comparing jelly beans to a Navy beans or garbanzo beans is a as an adequate way to say, you know, they're all carbs. No. Uh, now you all, you also bring up, uh, in addition to the volume concept and, you know, a lot of water filled foods, whether through roots in the ground or cooking them into pulses and grains and getting full on less calories, but protein and fiber.
I really, [00:25:20] um, I'm very, I've have, I'm going to just disclose, I have a high affinity of agreement for what you're talking about when it comes down to, uh, And fiber, but, and I'd love to hear it. Your, your take on that because the dynamic duo, if you will not to take money from Batman and Robin, uh, of those two, I think is a [00:25:40] very underrated issue.
One of the issues that comes across a lot and, and whatever community, but, you know, protein can't be stored. So overdoing, it doesn't matter. I say. But under doing it, if it can't be stored as also an issue, it might be a little bit of just on-time delivery. This, I come from Detroit, so we have this auto industry issue of just on-time delivery [00:26:00] and the combination with fiber.
Um, last comment, the wild, the lagoon might be the poster child for the combination. I had a chance to, uh, get into some study and interview one of the lead researchers of the Bolivian. Uh, Chimani the, uh, they're not hunter gatherers. Horticultural forger hunters, I guess, living in the Amazon. [00:26:20] And they did.
Take on beans too. Well, they were present, I think some missionaries tried to present beans and we're like, eh, uh, but the vegetate, the amount of vegetation they eat, you know, combined with bushmeat and some fish, they really have a solid blend of protein and fiber, uh, without having to do beans legumes.
So are there blue zones and their heavy reliance on beans, lentils, [00:26:40] and peas. Great. Wonderful. But you can do it another way yet. Somehow this common link of low disease risk in, in, in quality protein intake with, with high intact fiber. It seems to be a really, um, powerful topic. And you've, I think I love the way that you nail it down.
So please give us your thoughts on protein and fiber. So, so my
Prof Giles Yeo: thoughts on it, but [00:27:00] if we deal with it from a, from a calorie availability point of view, there are many ways of viewing this. Um, but I approached it from a calorie availability point of view is that foods that are higher in protein and fiber.
Um, our, shall we say, have a lower caloric availability. Your body has to work harder in order to try and [00:27:20] get the calories out of them and for, for a number of different reasons. So if starting with, well, let's start with fiber. We can't digest most fiber there's soluble fiber. Yes. I understand that. But on soluble, fiber comes out the other side, it's the it's the corner of the Cubs scenario is talk about it.
Aren't you eat a hundred calories of corn and a carbon next day. You look in the porcelain. Yes, exactly. It's all there. So, [00:27:40] so, um, so the fiber. Uh, um, makes a difference. And not only that your body has to, if you eat and fiber comes almost exclusively from plants, clumpy. When you eat something that is high in fiber you'll, even if it's, and most of these are packed full of carbohydrates, your body has to work [00:28:00] harder in order to get out the carbohydrates.
So this is the equivalent of drinking, OJ, orange juice versus eating an orange. Um, and you, we know that if we look at glycemic index that drinking orange juice is the equivalent of drinking. Of of soda. Okay. In terms of sugar, tons of sugar and your body absorbs it very quickly. Whereas if you eat the [00:28:20] source food, the orange, the orange, because of the presence of.
You your, your body a, it makes you feel full up because you're eating the fiber and B your body. It has a slower release of sugar throughout, throughout the body. So that's why fiber is just fabulous for you. Let alone it being good for your microbiome. Yeah. Yes,
Dr Tom Rifai: microbiome and all those short [00:28:40] chain, fatty acids, it seems have some appetite suppressing effect.
And one other concept of the so-called ilial break that if there's a lot of undigested food at the end of your 30 feet of small bowel. Just be sending back a signal, Hey, don't need to eat so much. We're good here, here. And, and, and protein in terms of its, um, and I [00:29:00] don't claim it to be magical appetite reduction, but it seems to have a, a more of a calorie per cow.
Uh, suppression of hunger
Prof Giles Yeo: hormones. It does. So a calorie of protein makes you feel fuller than a calorie of fat than a calorie of carbon in the, in that order. And I guess there are two reasons for this first, it takes longer living inside FIBA, which [00:29:20] we caught this digest that we've talked about already.
Of the three macronutrients, fat protein and carbs protein is the most difficult to digest. It just is. Our body takes a little bit of time to actually take it apart. So it travels a little bit further down the gut. Okay. Therefore making you feel slightly fuller. That's the first bit the digestion, [00:29:40] but once it crosses the gut wall and becomes amino acids, the building blocks of protein, you then have to metabolize it.
And the problem with, and I you've really mentioned is, is that we can't see all the protein in our body is, uh, is active. Okay. Is there to actually as muscle or to repair organs and or cells. [00:30:00] And if you don't do anything with it, you have to convert it into fat and get a convert. You have to, you, you've got to use it.
Okay. Now the problem, not the problem, fat and carbohydrate. Are all made entirely of co of carbon oxygen and hydrogen, those three atoms in different [00:30:20] configurations, exclusively. That's all it is made of the problem with. Is it contains other stuff, including nitrogen. And in order to convert protein into something, storable you have to remove the nitrogen.
Okay. And this comes out as you Rhea, which we pee out or poop out. Okay. And so this [00:30:40] whole process. Taking the nitrogen out and removing it and shuffling the protein into, you know, into something else costs energy. And so at the end of the day, we know that on average for every hundred calories of protein that you eat, we only ever absorb or use 70 calories because [00:31:00] 30 calories for every hundred, you eat of protein is spent just processing.
Dealing with it. And so that's the, that is the reason why protein actually makes you feel fuller. Those two reasons longer to digest, harder to metabolize. Wonderful,
Dr Tom Rifai: wonderful combination. Then, you know, you get a nice pulse, no pun intended off of both. When you go to [00:31:20] beans, lentils, and peas. That exactly that that said, no, we are we're, we're winding down here.
And how can we not discuss with a world-class geneticists, the issue of epigenetics and are we necessarily set fate? We're screwed because of our genes and N no, I don't think so. Let's hear from an expert on how, uh, you might be able to [00:31:40] turn on and off horse modify the intensity of influence of certain genes based on lifestyle.
Dr. Yo.
Prof Giles Yeo: So, let me tell you what we know and what we don't know. Okay. If, if, if I might, I think undoubtedly, so epigenetics as, um, as your listeners may or may not know, is the decorations on DNA that influences whether, [00:32:00] how, how your genes are turned on or turned off or how much your genes are turned on and turned off.
So while your DNA stays the same stays the same, the epigenetics can influence this. In effect the, um, at the cusp sort of sorts of at the interface between the environment and your genes, because the environment [00:32:20] can influence the epigenetics. Now we know a lot about the epigenetics of type two diabetes, about the epigenetics of, um, exercise, et cetera, because these involve tissues, which are peripheral when, I mean peripheral, I mean, Southwest.
Okay. So [00:32:40] type two diabetes tends to be a, a pancreas and insulin secretion problem and a pancreas. Um, something like exercise involves your skeletal muscle. And these are areas of the body that we can get access to from a living, breathing, human being. And so our understanding of the epigenetics underlying.
Conditions or efficiency of exercise are [00:33:00] quite mature now, epigenetics, in other words, our behavior, our feeding behavior will undoubtedly change the epigenetics of the genes within our brains, which is where, which influences how feeding behavior the problem is. We have not been able to. For obvious reasons, been able to get brain tissue out [00:33:20] of living human beings up for those reasons.
So, no. Ah, so now we are beginning to get doughnut tissues okay. From brain banks and are now beginning to understand a little bit more about this, but I think we understand our understanding of the epigenetics of obesity and [00:33:40] food intake is relatively embryonic because of that. Of the source material to study, but as we get better and better at looking at postmortem material and donor material, we will begin to understand this more, but undoubtedly our behavior.
Okay. Be it stress, uh, um, you know, be it, our diet, [00:34:00] anything will influence how our genes are turned on and turned off our epigenetics.
Dr Tom Rifai: Wonderful. And, um, I cannot thank you enough for your time professor. Yo, this has been phenomenal, please. Uh, if you have a chance to, uh, follow, uh, how can people follow you on social media or other than.[00:34:20]
Prof Giles Yeo: Okay. So my Instagram or Twitter, just my name Giles yo, is, is, is my handle, um, for, for the, for those, for those socials. And, uh, my podcast, as you mentioned, Dr. Charles you're choose the fat and why calories don't count is, um, is out now.
Dr Tom Rifai: Absolutely. Check it out and gene eating as well as out as [00:34:40] well. What a wonderful conversation.
I hope that we can have you back sometime in the future, especially if you have some research to report professor Giles. Cambridge university world-class geneticists and what just an all around great guy gave some personal and honest. A, you were very honest about yourself. Thank you for being transparent in that regard has been an absolute pleasure to have you [00:35:00] thank you so much for being on the true health revealed
Prof Giles Yeo: podcast.
Pleasure to be on Tom. Thank you.
Dr Tom Rifai: What a great conversation with professor yo, yo, yo, yo, I'm all into it. I think that was wonderful. I loved his. It's ironic, but I'm very glad to hear he's a flexitarian and, um, you know, it, it's, it's just a real Testament to what we can do with the [00:35:20] true health initiative to bring some of the world class leaders in lifestyle as medicine, nutrition, health, disease prevention.
Please please consider a donation to the true health initiative. We are a nonprofit it's as easy as going to true health initiative.org. That is where of course you can find a podcast button [00:35:40] in addition to Spotify and Google and everywhere else, please consider anything even the smallest donation to the true health initiative.
We would be honored to take that donation and make the best of it to help people learn about what they can do to not only add years. But add life to years. Thank you so much. This is Dr. Tom signing off on this [00:36:00] episode of true health revealed. We'll see you next time around. Thank you for listening to the true health revealed podcast.
We appreciate your time and hope you'll join us again for more information on today's episode and to subscribe to future pod. Please visit true health initiative.org. And to help us [00:36:20] continue the fight against fake facts, please consider donating to our nonprofit true health initiative.[00:36:40] .